Kidlitchat Transcript – November 16

For clarity, we revised the topic question as the chat progressed. The updated version is more like “Would you do anything, sign anything, to get published? How do you protect yourself and your work?”

2:00 am kidlitchat: TOPIC: Will you do anything for money? How do you protect yourself and your work? #kidlitchat
2:01 am j_ro333: @gregpincus “will you do anything for money?” Wow. This could really be interpreted in so many ways. #kidlitchat
2:01 am gregpincus: I think a lot of us creative types tend to shy away from the business of the business we’re in. We shouldn’t. #kidlitchat
2:01 am amyknichols: @j_ro333 That was my thought, too! #kidlitchat
2:02 am jimhill: That depends on the amount of money now doesn’t it? #kidlitchat
2:02 am gregpincus: @j_ro333 LOL@amyknichols But one thing that inspired this topic is the James Frey mess (http://bit.ly/abIicy) #kidlitchat
2:02 am bonnieadamson: @jimhill Oh, haha. #kidlitchat
2:02 am sarahockler: Seems like 2 very different questions! What do you mean? #kidlitchat
2:03 am gregpincus: Clearly we shoulda worded this better! #kidlitchat
2:03 am kellyhashway: I’m not sure I fully understand tonight’s topic. #kidlitchat
2:04 am bonnieadamson: Actually, the James Frey case ISN’T so much about money–just the desperation to be published . . . right? #kidlitchat
2:04 am gregpincus: What about… do you do works for hire? Do you just want to be in print or do you want to be well published? #kidlitchat
2:04 am cindysku: I think those people needed to get a good lawyer to explain the contract #kidlitchat
2:04 am j_ro333: Protection? Register with writers guild and hope for the best. You aren’t going anywhere if works stays at home. #kidlitchat
2:04 am MirandaKennealy: @Gregpincus How about: Would you do anything, sign anything, to get published? #kidlitchat
2:04 am amyknichols: @gregpincus I figured as much. So based on the James Frey mess, I can answer no. I wouldn’t do *anything* for money. #kidlitchat
2:04 am bonnieadamson: Yes->RT @MirandaKennealy: @Gregpincus How about: Would you do anything, sign anything, to get published? #kidlitchat
2:05 am WendyMartinArt: Everyone has a price. Some of us are just more expensive than others. #kidlitchat
2:05 am sarahockler: Pub business/industry is like a magic black box. So secret & glam from the outside, hard to get info until you’re inside. #kidlitchat
2:05 am jimhill: @bonnieadamson No, I think it’s both. The promise of 40% royalties is a big lure (not accountable, so you will be hosed) #kidlitchat
2:05 am j_ro333: @gregpincus All depends. For certain works I only want traditional pub. Others can be on social media/website. #kidlitchat
2:06 am bonnieadamson: @jimhill So, just desperation, period. #kidlitchat
2:06 am gregpincus: @sarahockler I don’t think it’s such a black box. I think we just don’t like to look under the hood. #kidlitchat
2:06 am j_ro333: @gregpincus And definitely would do work for hire if I wasn’t working on WIP at the time. Someone tell Mark! #kidlitchat
2:07 am PattyJMurphy: @gregpincus: Integrity + ethics + staying true to your work = essentials to success IMHO. #kidlitchat
2:07 am MidnightRem: @gregpincus I’ve done works for hire as part of my dayjob. It hasn’t helped me get published yet. Perhaps someday. #kidlitchat
2:07 am Jane_George: @gregpincus #kidlitchat There’s no pub industry “stamp of legitimacy” in a WFH contract. Better to self-pub than get taken advantage of.
2:07 am jennymckmoss: @sarahockler Or sometimes even if you’re inside! #kidlitchat
2:08 am adamselzer: I do works for hire sometimes when the chance comes up and I need some money. #kidlitchat
2:08 am bonnieadamson: WFH is not always bad–you just need to know what you’re getting into. Full fathom Five IS bad. #kidlitchat
2:08 am valvearshecter: @gregpincus Think it depends on the stage of career. When I was young, I woulda taken any project. Now I want to be well pubbed. #kidlitchat
2:08 am gregpincus: Well, there are plenty of totally legit work-for-hires out there. By itself it isn’t evil. It’s about expectations and details #kidlitchat
2:08 am j_ro333: I wouldn’t let certain things go in the contract just to say I was published. This is a business and you can lose tremendous $ #kidlitchat
2:08 am sarahockler: @gregpincus For unpubbed, it can be really hard to get info, or know where or HOW to look under the hood. Even pubbed it’s hard! #kidlitchat
2:08 am sarahockler: @jennymckmoss Exactly. So many sekrits. :-) #kidlitchat
2:09 am hollycupala: @AngelinaCHansen Try www.tweetchat.com, Angelina – it’s great for such things! In fact I think I’ll switch over to #kidlitchat now.
2:09 am j_ro333: … If you aren’t careful when reviewing contract. #kidlitchat
2:09 am jimhill: @bonnieadamson Desperation is a big part, for sure. #kidlitchat
2:09 am rllafevers: Work for hire can be beneficial if you’re paid fairly & aren’t hosed in the contract. Lots of writers got their start with WFH. #kidlitchat
2:09 am sarahockler: @gregpincus But it’s true that lots of folks don’t do the homework – just want to get pubbed, no matter what. #kidlitchat
2:10 am angelamatteson: An author just emailed all his Jacketflap friends looking for an illustrator for work for hire project. 150 artists responded. #kidlitchat
2:10 am WendyMartinArt: @angelamatteson you’re kidding #kidlitchat
2:10 am rllafevers: WFH can be a great way to perfect the craft and pub under your own name when you’re good and ready. #kidlitchat
2:11 am angelamatteson: Personally, I think the way he went about it was unprofessional & I didn’t want anything to do with it myself. #kidlitchat
2:11 am adamselzer: Now, if you look up work-for-hire places online, it’s mostly places that pay about a quarter of a cent per word. #kidlitchat
2:11 am hollycupala: I haven’t done WFH but might be interested. I think I would be most worried about my writing not fitting the requirements. #kidlitchat
2:11 am PattyJMurphy: @sarahockler: Yes, that’s why it’s important to be informed, surround yourself with knowledgeable and supportive people, too. #kidlitchat
2:11 am jennymckmoss: I’ve found it’s not easy for me to write unless I’m very engaged w/ the project – so limits what I could do, no matter the $. #kidlitchat
2:11 am adamselzer: Even pulp mags in the 50s paid a full penny a word. #kidlitchat
2:11 am MirandaKennealy: All this kind of reminds me of the housing crisis. People wanted a house so much they signed mortgages they couldn’t afford :/ #kidlitchat
2:12 am Jane_George: @angelamatteson #kidlitchat As an illustrator I won’t do WFH.
2:12 am SheviStories: At one point, my job was to compile TV listings for a newspaper. Does that count as “doing anything for money?” #kidlitchat
2:12 am sarahockler: @MirandaKennealy Good analogy! #kidlitchat
2:12 am KatGirl_Studio: @angelamatteson ya i got that email too… twice actually #kidlitchat
2:12 am bonnieadamson: @PattyJMurphy I think that’s what many find so heinous–preying on MFA students who may not know better. #kidlitchat
2:12 am adamselzer: But now and then I do get an offer from a place that pays well, and I take it if it sounds like fine (or I’m broke). #kidlitchat
2:12 am WendyMartinArt: @angelamatteson I get at least two requests a week to illustrate a writer’s book. So far not one has agreed to sign a contract #kidlitchat
2:12 am angelamatteson: @WendyMartinArt He said his publisher had an illustrator but he wanted to find his own. Not the way it’s done! #kidlitchat
2:13 am bonnieadamson: @angelamatteson I got that, too . . . did you get the follow-up? apparently many responded. #kidlitchat
2:13 am malindalo: I believe I did WFH when I was freelancing as a reporter, and it was fine. But that was very different than writing fiction. #kidlitchat
2:13 am cindysku: RT @bonnieadamson: @PattyJMurphy I think that’s what many find so heinous–preying on MFA students who may not know better. #kidlitchat
2:13 am gregpincus: @sarahockler One of the challenges, I think, is in even knowing the right questions to ask before you’re knee deep in it #kidlitchat
2:13 am PattyJMurphy: @bonnieadamson: Then, MFA programs need to be informed + then, inform their students. #kidlitchat
2:14 am LaFabuliste: @angelamatteson was once in a crit group with guy who was auditioning illustrators for his PB. Wanted a “precious moments” feel. #kidlitchat
2:14 am amylovestrees: I remember a picture book about a day on the farm – pub w/out author credit. It alluded to Faulkner w/the names (con’t) #kidlitchat
2:14 am hollycupala: I liked what @maureenjohnson had to say about writing programs implementing a class on the business side. Definitely. #kidlitchat
2:14 am SheviStories: All journalism is WFH, I think. #kidlitchat
2:14 am WendyMartinArt: @BonnieAdamson I don’t open JacketFlap messages. Anyone who’s really my friend has my eamil #kidlitchat
2:14 am PattyJMurphy: @malindalo: It’s all about story if done well–fiction, non-fiction, poetry, etc. #kidlitchat
2:14 am angelamatteson: @TracyBishopArt No, they were all eager & interested! Artists need to be educated about how to protect themselves. #kidlitchat
2:14 am bonnieadamson: @PattyJMurphy Exactly! #kidlitchat
2:15 am WendyMartinArt: @angelamatteson Glad I’m not his publisher… #kidlitchat
2:15 am bonnieadamson: @angelamatteson That was my take on the James Frey thing–illustrators are even more vulnerable, I think. #kidlitchat
2:15 am malindalo: @PattyJMurphy Well, sometimes it is about paying the bills. :) #kidlitchat
2:15 am amylovestrees: And I thought “I LOVE you anonymous Faulkner-allusio-writing kid book author-for-hire!” #kidlitchat
2:15 am LaFabuliste: It is really hard to chat while crocheting. #kidlitchat
2:16 am Jane_George: Hungry=good. Desperate=bad. #kidlitchat
2:16 am PattyJMurphy: @gregpincus: And, knowing what you don’t know…and asking someone for help:) #kidlitchat
2:16 am sarahockler: @gregpincus Exactly. I think that’s 1 reason agents are so important. #kidlitchat
2:16 am angelamatteson: @KatGirl_Studio I’ve found people abuse Jacketflap’s emailing capabilities. I tend to cringe when I get email from JF. #kidlitchat
2:16 am cindysku: James Frey seems so creepy #kidlitchat
2:17 am LaFabuliste: Personally, am kind of offended by these writers who might sign because they don’t want to “work” at anything but writing. #kidlitchat
2:17 am MirandaKennealy: @sarahockler Agreed! Agents are super important. They tell us where to sign. :) And then we go back to doodling in notebooks. #kidlitchat
2:17 am kellyhashway: I’ve even noticed some agents who are also writers who do WFH. That struck me as odd. #kidlitchat
2:17 am WendyMartinArt: @angelamatteson I think there is an option to turn off email on the JF preferences page #kidlitchat
2:18 am jennymckmoss: @sarahockler @gregpincus It’s also why it’s important for writers to help one another out – we educate & protect one another. #kidlitchat
2:18 am LaFabuliste: ESPECIALLY right out of school. Reminds me of those peers of mine who wouldn’t take less than dream job 2sec after diploma. #kidlitchat
2:18 am PattyJMurphy: @malindalo: But, whatever you write, it should be your absolute best. We owe it to our readers, editors, pubs, and ourselves:) #kidlitchat
2:18 am jothompsonillos: Everyone always wants me 2 work for free! … #kidlitchat
2:18 am PattyJMurphy: RT @sarahockler: @gregpincus Exactly. I think thats 1 reason agents are so important. <<Absolutely:) #kidlitchat
2:19 am Jane_George: RT @jennymckmoss: @sarahockler @gregpincus It’s also why it’s important for writers to help one another out – we educate & protect one another. #kidlitchat
2:19 am angelamatteson: @LaFabuliste Funny how they want us to compete tooth and nail for projects that are no good to start! #kidlitchat
2:19 am WendyMartinArt: Or for ‘exposure’ RT @jothompsonillos: Everyone always wants me 2 work for free! … #kidlitchat
2:19 am jothompsonillos: … Even publishr wants me 2 do all promotional material & book trailer that others would b payd to do! #kidlitchat
2:19 am bookaliciouspam: I do have to say that I found I AM NUMBER FOUR to be a great gateway book for those reluctant boy readers. They love the aliens. #kidlitchat
2:19 am j_ro333: Spot on! RT @gregpincus: One of the challenges is in even knowing the right questions to ask before you’re knee deep in it #kidlitchat
2:20 am SheviStories: I was a journalist for 12 years. Have to make a living, and writing and illustrating are the only way I know. #kidlitchat
2:20 am angelamatteson: @BonnieAdamson Yes, I got his thank you follow-up. It was a success in his book. #kidlitchat
2:20 am KatGirl_Studio: @angelamatteson ya they would be better off just making their own #kidlitchat
2:20 am bonnieadamson: @angelamatteson Kinda creepy. #kidlitchat
2:20 am HP4Writers: RT @jennymckmoss: It’s also why it’s important for writers to help one another out – we educate & protect one another. #kidlitchat
2:20 am emilytastic: What’s the topic tonight, guys? #kidlitchat
2:21 am WendyMartinArt: @George_Ivanoff You can die from exposure #kidlitchat
2:21 am PattyJMurphy: @LaFabuliste: I do think that writers need to have good business sense + be involved w/marketing, promotions, etc. #kidlitchat
2:21 am jothompsonillos: LOL RT @WendyMartinArt: @George_Ivanoff You can die from exposure #kidlitchat
2:22 am CERodriguez: @PattyJMurphy: Illustrators, too. Oh, we are all so put upon. :) #kidlitchat
2:22 am bonnieadamson: RT @CERodriguez: @PattyJMurphy: Illustrators, too. Oh, we are all so put upon. :) #kidlitchat
2:22 am PattyJMurphy: Hi, @jothompsonillos…good to see you tonight/tomorrow:) #kidlitchat
2:22 am HP4Writers: Agreed! RT @PattyJMurphy: I think that writers need to have good business sense + be involved w/marketing, promotions, etc. #kidlitchat
2:22 am SheviStories: @emilytastic Topic is about doing anything for money. #kidlitchat
2:22 am Jane_George: Illo is even tougher than writing, I think. Awards don’t = more work and folks think they should own your intellectual property. #kidlitchat
2:23 am bookaliciouspam: Read an article recently about the guy who wrote the Hardy Boys. He barely had groceries & couldn’t get pubbed. pen name clause #kidlitchat
2:23 am j_ro333: Exactly! RT @PattyJMurphy: I do think that writers need to have good business sense + be involved w/marketing, promotions, etc. #kidlitchat
2:23 am LaFabuliste: @PattyJMurphy Did I say elsewise? I don’t think I gave that impression, did I?! #kidlitchat
2:23 am bonnieadamson: @Jane_George Amen. #kidlitchat
2:23 am SheviStories: Actually, I think the problem with WFH isn’t the deal itself–it’s not getting properly compensated for your time/work/talent. #kidlitchat
2:23 am LaFabuliste: I don’t mean “work” like promoting, marketing, speaking. I mean having a day job to live and eat and have a house. #kidlitchat
2:23 am gregpincus: Making a living and making art don’t always co-exist well. It’s okay to make choices based on both aspects. #kidlitchat
2:24 am PattyJMurphy: @LaFabuliste: No! I was agreeing with you:) #kidlitchat
2:24 am sarahockler: RT @gregpincus: Making a living and making art dont always co-exist well. Its okay to make choices based on both aspects. #kidlitchat
2:24 am EgmontGal: @HP4Writers I don’t exactly agree. Writers don’t NEED business sense, but dependability helps. We can help (and so can agents) #kidlitchat
2:24 am WendyMartinArt: @gregpincus Why can’t we make a living from making art? What law says making money and making art have to be mutually exclusive #kidlitchat
2:24 am angelamatteson: @WendyMartinArt Now I send them this great article by Dani Jones: http://bit.ly/Ig8C9 #kidlitchat
2:24 am LaFabuliste: I admit, my generation can live in a very entitled bubble. I can’t sacrifice my TALENT for a 9-5, are you KIDDING ME? #kidlitchat
2:25 am SheviStories: A fair WFH deal with a reputable client works for everyone, including the writer/artist. #kidlitchat
2:25 am j_ro333: RT @gregpincus: Making a living and making art don’t always co-exist well. It’s okay to make choices based on both aspects. #kidlitchat
2:25 am bookaliciouspam: @EgmontGal I am sure though it helps when your authors are social media savvy. #kidlitchat
2:26 am emilytastic: I see why people are down on JF. I don’t see why people are down on all WFH types. I know plenty of great folks who’ve done WFH. #kidlitchat
2:26 am EgmontGal: @bookaliciouspam Yes, it’s nice when our authors are social media savvy. I don’t call that business sense, though. #kidlitchat
2:26 am SheviStories: Sometimes working for a living leads to opportunities that let you create the art you want to create. #kidlitchat
2:26 am EgmontGal: @bookaliciouspam but then if authors all had business sense, agents and I would be out of a job I suppose. #kidlitchat
2:26 am WendyMartinArt: RT @SheviStories: Sometimes working for a living leads to opportunities that let you create the art you want to create. #kidlitchat
2:26 am gregpincus: @WendyMartinArt They don’t have to be. Many do it. But it takes management and strategy. Or luck :) #kidlitchat
2:27 am WriterRoss: I try to deflect my lack of business acumen by telling people: I don’t do math. I write poetry. #kidlitchat
2:27 am EgmontGal: Our beloved @Micolz, author of the BRILLIANT Family coming in May ’11, did plenty of WFH as have others before her #kidlitchat
2:27 am WendyMartinArt: @gregpincus Perseverance AND Luck #kidlitchat
2:27 am gregpincus: @WendyMartinArt And it could easily mean taking works for hire to make ends meet. #kidlitchat
2:27 am bookaliciouspam: @EgmontGal very true! #kidlitchat
2:27 am bonnieadamson: @EgmontGal Having business sense doesn’t mean you don’t need advisors–it helps you choose your advisers wisely. #kidlitchat
2:27 am gregpincus: @WendyMartinArt It doesn’t, of course, mean doing things that are onerous and unlikely to pay off. #kidlitchat
2:28 am jothompsonillos: It seems everything I do turns out to be WFH even if it doesn’t start out that way! #kidlitchat
2:28 am bonnieadamson: WFH doesn’t necessarily equal exploitation. #kidlitchat
2:28 am malindalo: I think there are “working writers” and there are “artists.” I’d rather be a working writer, frankly, & I have been for 6 yrs. #kidlitchat
2:28 am j_ro333: @EgmontGal Not to mention the plethora of other things the “business” folks do for us. #kidlitchat
2:28 am WendyMartinArt: @gregpincus Most education market work is WFH. WFH is not always a bad deal. #kidlitchat
2:28 am valvearshecter: When I used to write for business I considered my writing a “trade.” Never thought of it as art. But it paid the bills. #kidlitchat
2:28 am PattyJMurphy: @EgmontGal: I think if we know about a bit @ the industry, have some creative marketing ideas, etc., it can help–not hurt:) #kidlitchat
2:28 am SheviStories: Many fiction writers started as journalists. You have to start somewhere. Even writing obits is writing experience. #kidlitchat
2:28 am EgmontGal: @jothompsonillos I dunno, artists and authors create a lot of their own promotional material w/pubs’ help, that’s usual #kidlitchat
2:28 am emilytastic: @EgmontGal Exactly. And is @Micolz any less awesome for it? No. I have a friend who called her WFH exp. as “writing boot camp.” #kidlitchat
2:29 am malindalo: That meant that sometimes I wrote stuff I hated for $. Nothing unethical just boring. I’m lucky that now I can write creatively. #kidlitchat
2:29 am janflora: @EgmontGal How do you get into WFH? #kidlitchat
2:29 am WriterRoss: ..but not getting $ numbers has lead to inappropriate life and career decisions so… the older I get, hopefully the wiser I get #kidlitchat
2:29 am Jane_George: Must run daughter to ballet. Bye! Will eagerly read transcript later… #kidlitchat
2:29 am LaurelSnyder: Oh! I almost forgot #kidlitchat
2:29 am PoseySessions: RT @malindalo: That meant that sometimes I wrote stuff I hated for $. Nothing unethical just boring. I’m lucky that now I can write creatively. #kidlitchat
2:30 am EgmontGal: @janflora Sorry, I am wrong person to ask about WFH since I have only done series novelty books like Corduroy with them #kidlitchat
2:30 am malindalo: @SheviStories I was there! I supported myself writing business reports. And then fluff pieces about entertainment. #kidlitchat
2:30 am gregpincus: @WendyMartinArt exactly. But there is good WFH and good publishing and bad on both sides, too. #kidlitchat
2:30 am LaFabuliste: I think WFH is great. Sweet Valley anyone? Provides lots of books for kids to read, and practice for authors. #kidlitchat
2:30 am LaurelSnyder: Is WFH the topic tonight? #kidlitchat
2:30 am jennipps: RT @HP4Writers: RT @jennymckmoss: It’s also why it’s important for writers to help one another out – we educate & protect one another. #kidlitchat
2:30 am EgmontGal: @malindalo And I appreciate writers with other professional writing experience–I know they can hit deadlines, be pro’s #kidlitchat
2:30 am bonnieadamson: @malindalo @SheviStories I started as a business news reporter–good experience. #kidlitchat
2:31 am CERodriguez: @LaFabuliste: I too think WFH is great. The educational market is driven this way and I don’t mind one bit. #kidlitchat
2:31 am LaFabuliste: But it all depends on the terms, the mutual benefits for both parties. JF deal doesn’t seem to have ANY of that. *rage* #kidlitchat
2:31 am Vickie_Adair: RT @WriterRoss: I try to deflect my lack of business acumen by telling people: I don’t do math. I write poetry. #kidlitchat
2:31 am janflora: jumping into #kidlitchat talking about WFH? on tweetchat now easier to check :) *reading* #kidlitchat
2:31 am jothompsonillos: @EgmontGal Oh! Creating is one thing but are you expected to pay for all the promos for your book to be printed? #kidlitchat
2:31 am bonnieadamson: @LaurelSnyder Protecting yourself/your work from James Frey, lol. #kidlitchat
2:31 am malindalo: @EgmontGal :) Deadlines! They actually mean something in journalism. LOL. What a learning experience! #kidlitchat
2:32 am amyknichols: WFH seems fine as long as there is reasonable compensation. Frey’s scheme seems to just take advantage of the writer. #kidlitchat
2:32 am WendyMartinArt: @jothompsonillos My pub is too small to do much promo. It’s all on me. #kidlitchat
2:32 am EgmontGal: @jothompsonillos I can’t speak for your publisher but we usually do the printing of promotional pieces #kidlitchat
2:32 am wmarchant: RT @gregpincus: Making a living and making art don’t always co-exist well. It’s okay to make choices based on both aspects. #kidlitchat
2:32 am emilytastic: We’re being a bit alarmist in the wake of OMGFREY. If u write for Alloy or do TV books, ur writing to pay the bills. That rocks. #kidlitchat
2:33 am WendyMartinArt: Sad but true. RT @gregpincus: @WendyMartinArt exactly. But there is good WFH and good publishing and bad on both sides, too. #kidlitchat
2:33 am janflora: I have been wondering how to start as a WFH writer? I think it sounds like a great way to work in publishing. #kidlitchat
2:33 am SheviStories: I actually enjoying A&E writing, but I was a Theater major, so theater is my thing. Loved the free tickets. :D #kidlitchat
2:33 am malindalo: @bonnieadamson Absolutely. I wish I’d started reporting earlier. It was such good training for other writing. #kidlitchat
2:33 am LaurelSnyder: I can do WFH if its really distinct from my own books. #kidlitchat
2:33 am passportpocket: RT @gregpincus: Making a living and making art don’t always co-exist well. It’s okay to make choices based on both aspects. #kidlitchat
2:34 am bonnieadamson: @malindalo And for writing, no matter what, lol. :-) #kidlitchat
2:34 am bookaliciouspam: I wrote the community section in a small town paper. 1,500 ppl. Which meant I learned the hard way how best to compliment roses #kidlitchat
2:34 am EgmontGal: I can also think of TV writers who’ve gone on to write YA and mid grade–lots of ‘em. They can revise, take feedback, it’s great #kidlitchat
2:34 am bonnieadamson: @LaurelSnyder WFH is okay if original concept is not yours . . . for me, anyway. #kidlitchat
2:34 am gregpincus: @emilytastic I agree – there is good and bad work and many reasons to do WFH. #kidlitchat
2:35 am LaFabuliste: @emilytastic Yes! I think I’m cynical, tho. Freyminions want $$$$$$$$. Not just to make a living. #kidlitchat
2:35 am CERodriguez: @janflora: Many writers I know got their WFH start in the educational market doing nonfiction, guidebooks, etc. #kidlitchat
2:35 am passportpocket: RT @EgmontGal: I can also think of TV writers who’ve gone on to write YA and mid grade–lots of ‘em. They can revise, take feedback, it’s great #kidlitchat
2:35 am SheviStories: So it sounds like many of us didn’t mind making money while building writing experience as journalists. #kidlitchat
2:36 am malindalo: @bonnieadamson True! #kidlitchat
2:36 am EgmontGal: So many of us have just gotten salary or flat fee for working on big hits.But then we’ve worked on duds and still been paid, too #kidlitchat
2:36 am valvearshecter: I agree, WFH can be a great training ground for working with editors, honing your craft and making deadlines. #kidlitchat
2:37 am janflora: @CERodriguez Thank you :) I will check some sights out #kidlitchat
2:37 am bonnieadamson: @SheviStories Didn’t mind? I was proud of journalism achievements! Still am. #kidlitchat
2:37 am jennymckmoss: As an engineer I kept volunteering for writing – I’ll write that memo! I’ll write that training manual! – desperate to write #kidlitchat
2:37 am SheviStories: When it comes down to it, I’d rather get paid to write something I’m less than crazy about than write what I like without pay. #kidlitchat
2:37 am EgmontGal: Who out there has tips for people trying to get into WFH business? #kidlitchat
2:37 am passportpocket: Hey writers, come take part in an exciting dialogue happening RIGHT NOW. Search hashtag #kidlitchat.
2:37 am sarahockler: RT @emilytastic: being alarmist in the wake of OMGFREY. If u write for Alloy / TV books, ur writing to pay bills. That rocks. #kidlitchat
2:37 am janflora: *sites* lol (!) RT @janflora: @CERodriguez Thank you :) I will check some sights out #kidlitchat
2:37 am cjomololu: I did a lot of web writing – home page descriptions, articles, etc. Good training for deadlines. #kidlitchat
2:37 am janflora: RT @EgmontGal: Who out there has tips for people trying to get into WFH business? #kidlitchat
2:38 am CERodriguez: @SheviStories: That is exactly how I feel about illustration. You gotta go out there and slay the dragon! #kidlitchat
2:38 am malindalo: ME TOO. RT @SheviStories: I’d rather get paid to write something I’m less than crazy about than write what I like without pay. #kidlitchat
2:38 am bonnieadamson: @EgmontGal PSS says they’re looking for writers. Your own Euro branch hires WFH also. #kidlitchat
2:38 am WriterRoss: I’ve done WFH. Lack of incentive to promote the books is one reason I shy away now. Still, wrote my best. Didn’t -give- less. #kidlitchat
2:38 am bookaliciouspam: RT @janflora: RT @EgmontGal: Who out there has tips for people trying to get into WFH business? #kidlitchat
2:38 am sarahockler: There are lots of writing opportunities – some legit & some creepy. The key is to be informed & educated, then make decisions. #kidlitchat
2:38 am SheviStories: @bonnieadamson Me too. I was a political cartoonist for 7 years. Just this Sunday an agent told me toot that horn when I query! #kidlitchat
2:39 am bonnieadamson: @SheviStories I agree–toot away! #kidlitchat
2:39 am jennymckmoss: I did two flat-fee non-fiction picture books for Capstone – got my name on a list & two years later was called for the project! #kidlitchat
2:39 am HP4Writers: @SheviStories I have a writer friend who says, “The book of my heart is the one that sells!” :-) #kidlitchat
2:39 am janflora: I have done web writing too but would like to try WFH fiction, series, etc. #kidlitchat
2:40 am KelleyVitollo: RT @sarahockler: There are lots of writing opportunities – some legit & some creepy. The key is to be informed & educated, then make decisions. #kidlitchat
2:40 am SheviStories: For illustrators, if you follow GAG’s recommendations, you’ll be much less likely to get ripped off with WFH. #kidlitchat
2:40 am WendyMartinArt: @SheviStories But I often hear ot only include kid lit related experiences #kidlitchat
2:40 am janflora: lol! RT @HP4Writers: @SheviStories I have a writer friend who says, “The book of my heart is the one that sells!” :-) #kidlitchat
2:40 am jothompsonillos: My costs for illustrating PB are far in excess of income. Taken a year and earnt less than hubby’s weekly wage! #kidlitchat
2:40 am EgmontGal: Sometimes we eds feel the same way. Which is my favorite Egmont book? The one we just reprinted. #kidlitchat
2:40 am MandyHubbard: I’ve done WFH– my Harlequin NASCAR romance. In some ways it was like being paid to learn to write adult romance. #kidlitchat
2:41 am WriterRoss: I’ve also sold copy to greeting card publishers. The pay is flat fee but I love the work. #kidlitchat
2:41 am bonnieadamson: @jothompsonillos Unfortunately, this is a common problem. #kidlitchat
2:41 am SheviStories: @WendyMartinArt Not when it comes to writing. Any paid writing experience is worth mentioning. #kidlitchat
2:41 am valvearshecter: Legit WFH means researching the right targets. Lerner and Capstone are the biggest ones, yes? #kidlitchat
2:41 am CERodriguez: @SheviStories: Using GAG’s recommendations is also a great way to weed out the sketchy clients. #kidlitchat
2:41 am WendyMartinArt: @jothompsonillos If I figure an hourly rate on kidlit art I get about $1 an hour #kidlitchat
2:41 am emilytastic: @MandyHubbard I have always loved that NASCAR romance exists. Now you are extra cool for having written one. #kidlitchat
2:42 am jennymckmoss: @WriterRoss Was it fun work? Sounds fun. #kidlitchat
2:42 am janflora: yes, quick & simple :) RT @WriterRoss: Ive also sold copy to greeting card publishers. The pay is flat fee but I love the work. #kidlitchat
2:42 am DDHearn: @jothompsonillos I hear you. The last PB (nonfiction,lots of research) I did paid about four bucks an hour. #kidlitchat
2:42 am WendyMartinArt: @mstiefvater Happy birthday! #kidlitchat
2:42 am inarascott: I practiced law for ten years and wrote all the time. But now I have trouble using adjectives. LOL. #kidlitchat
2:42 am WriterRoss: Capstone is a great educational publisher. #kidlitchat
2:43 am SheviStories: @WendyMartinArt Yikes! I’ve never taken any art job for less than $40 an hour, but then I’ve done hourly WFH. #kidlitchat
2:43 am DDHearn: @WendyMartinArt I have found that WFH in illustration tends to pay better and take less time, so my hourly wage is much better. #kidlitchat
2:44 am novaren: Jumping in because I saw you were talking about WFH. I’ve done a lot of WFH… and it led to my first novel under my own name. #kidlitchat
2:44 am DDHearn: @inarascott I thought it wasn’t good to use adjectives in writing. #kidlitchat
2:44 am novaren: It was fantastic experience for me. I learned so much. Honestly don’t believe I’d be where I am w/out all the WFH books I wrote. #kidlitchat
2:44 am WendyMartinArt: @SheviStories I earn $60 an hour for graphic design jobs. Kid lit art takes me longer because I am so fussy #kidlitchat
2:44 am jennymckmoss: They are. & very professional. RT @WriterRoss: Capstone is a great educational publisher. #kidlitchat
2:44 am KatGirl_Studio: @SheviStories really, where did you find those? #kidlitchat
2:44 am DDHearn: @SheviStories Wow. You have some great clients. I’ve never worked hourly, and I’ve never made that much per hour. #kidlitchat
2:44 am LaFabuliste: Here’s a question– why do some people have yellow lightbulbs in their photos? #kidlitchat
2:45 am janflora: I wish I was more artistic! Many pubs want author/illustrators now (*it seems) #kidlitchat
2:45 am janflora: they have a great idea? :) RT @LaFabuliste: Heres a question– why do some people have yellow lightbulbs in their photos? #kidlitchat
2:45 am theames: Network network network! RT @EgmontGal: Who out there has tips for people trying to get into WFH business? #kidlitchat
2:45 am bonnieadamson: @LaFabuliste #PiBoIdMo–picture book idea month challenge #kidlitchat
2:45 am DDHearn: @LaFabuliste It’s for PiBoIdMo…getting a PB idea a day for the month of November. #kidlitchat
2:46 am janflora: i was close! :) RT @DDHearn: @LaFabuliste Its for PiBoIdMo…getting a PB idea a day for the month of November. #kidlitchat
2:46 am sarahockler: I look at WFH as the thing that helps me do what I <3 full time. It’s still writing, & I’m not sitting in a soul sucking cube! #kidlitchat
2:46 am LaFabuliste: Ahhhhhhhhh. Merci. #kidlitchat
2:46 am WriterRoss: @jennymckmoss Fun is relative but that writing comes easy to me & sold quickly. I’ve neglected that work; have MG mss fever. {} #kidlitchat
2:47 am janflora: I did PiBoWriWee (?) in May that was fun! but a month? wow not with Nanowrimo too #kidlitchat
2:47 am DDHearn: @bonnieadamson How are you doing with the ideas? I haven’t had time for it the past few days, so I need to catch up. #kidlitchat
2:47 am jennymckmoss: The Capstone work I got was b/c of SCBWI – Editor came to conf, I submitted proposal, didn’t buy that one, but added me to list #kidlitchat
2:47 am SheviStories: @DDHearn Yeah, but I’m fast. You ask me to draw six illos an hour, and I can do it. ($10 per, $100 minimum.) #kidlitchat
2:47 am DDHearn: @janflora I could never do the NaNoWriMo…though some do both. In fact I know someone who is doing that AND some drawing thing. #kidlitchat
2:48 am janflora: @DDHearn Is it just get ideas? or outlines? I always have new ideas! #kidlitchat
2:48 am CERodriguez: @SheviStories: Wha? Full color, or B/W? #kidlitchat
2:48 am jennymckmoss: @WriterRoss I know that type of fever. :) #kidlitchat
2:48 am LaFabuliste: @DDHearn That’s just repulsively showing off there, isn’t it? #kidlitchat
2:48 am bonnieadamson: @DDHearn I’m keeping up so far. :-) Not saying they’re all great . . . #kidlitchat #PiBoIdMo
2:48 am DDHearn: @janflora It’s just ideas. Some people have come up with 40 in a couple of days. Me…not so much. #kidlitchat
2:49 am gregpincus: I am doing NaBrEaMo (National Breakfast Eating Month). So far, I am on target. #kidlitchat
2:49 am WendyMartinArt: Same here –> RT @BonnieAdamson: @DDHearn I’m keeping up so far. :-) Not saying they’re all great . . . #kidlitchat #PiBoIdMo
2:49 am SheviStories: @CERodriguez B/W line art cartoons. I used to know someone who was faster, too. #kidlitchat
2:49 am janflora: @DDHearn WOW taht is a lot…I am sticking w/ nano…well, avoiding it right now actually :) #kidlitchat
2:49 am CERodriguez: @SheviStories: Nice! Could you sell me some of what makes you so fast? :) #kidlitchat
2:49 am DDHearn: @WendyMartinArt I”ve come up with a Titles page…but I only count that as one day because titles come easy to me. #kidlitchat
2:49 am sarahockler: In terms of protecting myself & work, I trust my agent 100%. I ask Qs, learn as much as possible about terms, contracts, etc. #kidlitchat
2:50 am DDHearn: @WendyMartinArt What to do with the titles is the problem I have. #kidlitchat
2:50 am HP4Writers: Hey! I can win at this one! RT @gregpincus: I am doing NaBrEaMo (National Breakfast Eating Month). So far, I am on target. #kidlitchat
2:50 am jimhill: @gregpincus I’ve managed to double up on NaBrEaMo. Cereal at 7, Pop Tarts at 10:30. #kidlitchat
2:50 am jothompsonillos: @gregpincus I prefer NanaNapMo a nanna nap a day for a month : ) #kidlitchat
2:50 am sarahockler: @gregpincus OMG I like the way you think. #willwriteforpancakes #kidlitchat
2:50 am DDHearn: @CERodriguez I’m with you. I’ve never been able to make a good living at this because it takes me too long to draw. #kidlitchat
2:50 am bonnieadamson: @DDHearn Some of my best ideas start with a good title. #kidlitchat
2:50 am WriterRoss: @jennymckmoss Pass the Advil (and the keyboard). I’ve written WFHs for name recognition, but not necessarily for love… #kidlitchat
2:50 am gregpincus: @jimhill The snack of champions! #kidlitchat
2:50 am LaFabuliste: My NaNo is at 9328. I am on all kinds of… rolls? #kidlitchat
2:51 am janflora: HAHHAHAHA! :) i failed tho… RT @gregpincus: I am doing NaBrEaMo (National Breakfast Eating Month). So far, I am on target. #kidlitchat
2:51 am jimhill: @bonnieadamson I’m on track with NaPiBoIdMo too. Shocking. A couple worth revisiting later too, I think. #kidlitchat
2:51 am WendyMartinArt: @DDHearn I am trying to follow advice to have a character, a problem and a solution in my ideas #kidlitchat
2:51 am DDHearn: @bonnieadamson Mine too. But it might take years for the story to come. Bad Luck Boswell took five years! #kidlitchat
2:51 am AmaliaGladhart: RT @gregpincus: Making a living and making art don’t always co-exist well. It’s okay to make choices based on both aspects. #kidlitchat
2:51 am gregpincus: @jothompsonillos NanaZZZZZZMo sounds swell to me. #kidlitchat
2:51 am bonnieadamson: @jimhill It gets better, don’t you think? You kinda get in a groove. #PiBoIdMo #kidlitchat
2:52 am SheviStories: @CERodriguez What makes me so fast? I think that’s called “indifference.” ;-) #kidlitchat
2:52 am janflora: I could definitely come up with a PB every day. I already have a list I keep. Next year too ? #kidlitchat
2:52 am jimhill: @gregpincus Elastic waisted champions! #kidlitchat
2:52 am DDHearn: @WendyMartinArt I can get the character and usually the problem. The solution is harder. #kidlitchat
2:52 am emcguirestudio: RT @gregpincus: I am doing NaBrEaMo (National Breakfast Eating Month). So far, I am on target. #kidlitchat
2:52 am MidnightRem: I’d actually like to find a bit more Work For Hire. #kidlitchat
2:52 am gregpincus: @mstiefvater If we define breakfast as the first meal o’ the day, you can’t do more. But if we base it on food… more points! #kidlitchat
2:53 am VBTremper: @gregpincus Wish I’d known about NaBrEaMo. I didn’t have breakfast today. #kidlitchat
2:53 am HP4Writers: Same here. Especially if the title IS the concept. RT @bonnieadamson: @DDHearn Some of my best ideas start with a good title. #kidlitchat
2:53 am jimhill: @bonnieadamson Yes, like exercise, you build up muscles. I started a reply to your rhyme-a-phobia comment yesterday too #kidlitchat
2:53 am DDHearn: @SheviStories I doodle really fast, and I’ve always wanted to do my illustrations in that style, but sketch stage-impossible. #kidlitchat
2:54 am janflora: you can have “brinner” :) lol RT @VBTremper: @gregpincus Wish Id known about NaBrEaMo. I didnt have breakfast today. #kidlitchat
2:54 am CERodriguez: @DDHearn: While there is more to illustration success than speed, I’d still love to have that as a superpower. #kidlitchat
2:54 am bonnieadamson: @DDHearn What’s so great about #PiBoIdMo, though, is I stick with it and pummel out a workable idea . . . eventually. #kidlitchat
2:54 am kquimbyjohnson: I agree, solutions are tough RT @DDHearn: @WendyMartinArt I can get the character & usually the problem. The solution is harder. #kidlitchat
2:54 am valvearshecter: NaBrEaMo. Finally, something I can excel at! #kidlitchat
2:54 am SheviStories: Exactly like that. RT @DDHearn: I doodle really fast, and Ive always wanted to do my illustrations in that style… #kidlitchat
2:54 am WendyMartinArt: @kquimbyjohnson but solutions are what makes the story workable #kidlitchat
2:55 am bonnieadamson: @jimhill lol–that one scared me. #kidlitchat
2:55 am DDHearn: @bonnieadamson Just having all my ideas in one little notebook (a page per idea) is great. Will put older ideas in later. #kidlitchat
2:55 am DDHearn: @CERodriguez Me too. I’ve tried doing computer art and it slows me up even more because you can fiddle with it so much! #kidlitchat
2:55 am SheviStories: Actually, I envy illustrators with the patience to work on one piece for days. So not me. #kidlitchat
2:56 am kquimbyjohnson: @WendyMartinArt Solutions are what make the story a story. Without them, it’s a premise. #kidlitchat
2:56 am bonnieadamson: @DDHearn I know–I saved mine from last year–going back, I’m seeing new possibilities in several. #kidlitchat
2:56 am WendyMartinArt: @SheviStories I have several pieces going a ta time so I can switch between them if I get stuck of bored #kidlitchat
2:56 am DDHearn: @SheviStories My doodles are so loose. But if I have to show editors a sketch and then a finish it just ruins it. #kidlitchat
2:57 am WendyMartinArt: @kquimbyjohnson exactly. No editor wants to buy a premise #kidlitchat
2:57 am octoberdaniels: RT @gregpincus: I am doing NaBrEaMo (National Breakfast Eating Month). So far, I am on target. #kidlitchat
2:57 am DDHearn: @SheviStories But the style du jour right now really does seem to be more simple and graphic. Lots of detail is OUT. #kidlitchat
2:58 am AveryOslo: RT @kquimbyjohnson: @WendyMartinArt Solutions are what make the story a story. Without them, it’s a premise. #kidlitchat
2:58 am WendyMartinArt: @DDHearn Guess I will have to wait to come back in style then. Lots of details in my arts. #kidlitchat
2:58 am DDHearn: @WendyMartinArt Me too. #kidlitchat
2:59 am kquimbyjohnson: @WendyMartinArt Meeting the challenge of finding the solution (or whatever is tough) is what makes a writer. #kidlitchat
2:59 am DDHearn: @AveryOslo Exactly. There must be conflict and some kind of solution…though some PBs don’t have that. #kidlitchat
2:59 am jothompsonillos: @SheviStories working on an illo for a longer time isn’t always better! more work for free. #kidlitchat
3:00 am DDHearn: Some PBs are mood pieces, lists of things tied together in some way…not always real plots. #kidlitchat
3:00 am WendyMartinArt: WIP in play 3 books, 4 illustrations. Bet I make my crit partners crazy #kidlitchat
3:00 am gregpincus: I’m afraid I have to take off. Will get the transcript up as soon as someone pays me :-) #kidlitchat
3:01 am DDHearn: @WendyMartinArt You’re a great multitasker. I tend to want to work on one thing until it’s done, then go on to the next thing. #kidlitchat
3:01 am WendyMartinArt: @DDHearn I think I have artistic ADD #kidlitchat
3:02 am KatGirl_Studio: nite tweeples I have to get back to my NaNoWriMo WIP #kidlitchat
3:03 am DDHearn: I guess it’s time to scoot on out of here. This was fun. Have fun with all your writing and ideas, everyone. #kidlitchat
3:04 am j_ro333: @gregpincus Thanks Greg! Glad to be back. Oh – and thanks for paying me to come back. #kidlitchat
3:04 am TerriClarkBooks: I’ve done some auditions for Alloy and gotten VERY close, but no luck. Would love to find some other WFH opps. #kidlitchat
3:04 am TerriClarkBooks: Anything to allow me to finally write full time and leave my job. #kidlitchat
3:04 am kellyhashway: Thanks for all the info about WFH. Night everyone! #kidlitchat
3:05 am ChristieKeith: RT @malindalo: ME TOO. RT @SheviStories: I’d rather get paid to write something I’m less than crazy about than write what I like without pay. #kidlitchat
3:05 am bonnieadamson: Goodnight all! May all your contracts be fair and lucrative. #kidlitchat
3:06 am WendyMartinArt: @BonnieAdamson Night Bonnie #kidlitchat
3:07 am jothompsonillos: RT @sarahockler: Pub business/industry is like a magic black box. So secret & glam from the outside, hard to get info until you’re inside. #kidlitchat
3:07 am SheviStories: I don’t know. Seems artists who work for days for pennies are setting clients’ expectations, so not much call for simplicity. #kidlitchat
3:09 am passportpocket: Goodnight writers ? thanks for a great conversation! #kidlitchat
3:09 am mikegardnervt: RT @passportpocket: Goodnight writers ? thanks for a great conversation! #kidlitchat
3:09 am TerriClarkBooks: Aw, man. My 1st #kidlitchat and it’s already over. LOL.
3:11 am sarahockler: Wow, that went by too fast! Hope to catch you all next week! :-) #kidlitchat

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